I wanted to really open up the can of worms so I am pasting my comments to his post below. Please chime in, I am rubbing my hands together in anticipation:
1. First to Curly's point of the lack of any $ at races in Europe, that's right, there is none, but...and you pointed this out yourself, the entry fee is only a couple of bucks, not $20-$40 a pop. Used to be back in the day a promoter could only charge a % of the prize list for the entry fee, then the districts voted for a "free market" where promoters could charge whatever they wanted. This was good and bad, good because promoters could charge what they wanted, could put on a race at a profit and suddenly there were more promoters putting on more races, bad, because entry fees went through the roof.
2. From e@thec: "If someone were looking to turn race promoting into a livelihood, then they'd be promoting Ironman-distance triathlons.". Well, there are a number of promoters (Team Columbus in Ohio is one, Threshold, Tailwind, etc. something tells me Douglas puts some pretty good coin into his pocket as well) out there that have turned race promoting into a livelihood, and, most do it because it grew out of their love for the sport.
When I was asked to help put on races here in Kitsap by a local business man I told him up front that I would help but under a few conditions: 1. I was to be paid a fee, 2. We would run it as professionally as possible 3. We would not run our events at a loss or even break even, we would make a profit on the event.
To insure those 3 points were covered, we had a job to do, and it was to secure sponsorship, and we did it. Whenever I put on a race, I determine what I would like to offer as prize money and then, at a min, I double that number to fill out my budget and that is the number that I go after. So, for last year's Blackberry race that paid out $7500, we raised $15,000.
Why go to all this trouble? Because it is my job as a promoter to do that and, I hope that by putting on what I think is a good race and soliciting feedback from the riders I can help raise the bar of races here in the NW.
I believe that most of the griping by riders, and by myself, is that there are many promoters out there that do not run their event in a professional manner and don't do their due diligence in securing funds to put on their event. You should not have to pay $25 or $30 for a race that does not start on time, takes forever to get results, gives out 1 tire and 2 inner tubes for 3rd place in the main event, etc, etc. And for crying out loud, at least have the last paying place equal to the entry fee. We (the riders) are not racing "for the money" we race because we love to ride our bikes fast and because we have a competitive drive to beat down our fellow rider and talk shit about them after, but, is it wrong for us to have a certain level of expectation from the promoters. We are paying $13 per rider at Pacific Raceway every Tuesday night and Rory can't even get the lap cards right for the races then tells us that we need to look at our clocks so we know when the race is ending. No Rory, that is why we are paying you $13 a rider every Tuesday, to do your job.
So promoters: do your job, the riders are doing theirs by training hard and paying their entry fees to your events to put on a good show for the crowds that show up and for the sponsors.That's all...for now. I am pasting this onto my BLOG to really open up the discussion.
Now to add to this post, I want to say, it is not all about the money, it is about the atmosphere at the race and the quality of the event. Prize money is just a part of that, not the whole pie. You also need a good course, good atmosphere and good prize money that is in line with what you are charging for an entry fee. At the very least, try to get 2 out of those 3 and your event is on its way to being a success.
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12 comments:
so much love in this blog... Personally, I'd like to see the Mayors Cup crits come back to Seattle... nothing brings a PRO like criteriums in downtown Seattle... Does Siegler have 50K I can borrow for a prize list? I'll make them a video and blog 3 days per week about what a great bike it is...
I wrote the following to the promoter of the Des Moines criterium in an email exchange I started because of the three places for merchandise offered for the category 3 race:
No one contesting the WSBA circuit is trying to make a living doing so. Nonetheless, many promoters pay cash prizes. Why? It's relatively easy
to win a bag of coffee or a t-shirt as a criterium prime but very difficult to win a $30 cash prime. In my experience, cash makes people race harder, and attracts a higher level of competition and bigger field. Other factors can tip the scale, like a challenging or scenic course, the glory of a state championship medal up for grabs, big
crowds, or perhaps longer than usual distance. Anyway, the promoter's job is to find the right combination of prizes, that when combined with
the other factors, generates a good turnout and repeat customers. The point of me writing was to let you know that I - as a potential customer of your race - need a better carrot to convince me to spend four hours driving time (round trip), gas money and an entry fee for a criterium. I can get a similar experience by contesting my local
Tuesday night training race without the time commitment or cost. I'm sorry if that offends you, and I'm certainly not one to discount the effort, planning and resources that go into putting on a race.
I'm sure if you asked nice, the promoter would open his books on the race. In fact, I know that the race is run as a 503c non-profit so if you do a little work, you can find it yourself.
"like a challenging or scenic course, the glory of a state championship medal up for grabs, big crowds" - why are you complaining? Des Moines was certainly the first two, and there were drunk people in corner 3 who built their OWN BLEACHERS to cover 3. You missed a good race - maybe you should try carpooling or something.
"Team Columbus in Ohio is one, Threshold, Tailwind, etc. something tells me Douglas puts some pretty good coin into his pocket as well"
pretty sure that's not really the case. in talking with him, once he says that races turn out to be more or less a wash, and that he makes his money off cascade events (think 9 thousand people).
Probably should come clean... Bryce buddy... I can understand yer POV, and sorry I didn't respond back to the last reply but it was a MASTERS event and not the main event so sorry to the 3's out there that didn't attend the hotly contested 3's race at DM because of prizes. After the bills are paid at Des Moines, the proceeds go to a local charity. The truth of the matter is that if you want to make money putting on an event, you're better off hitting up the "STP/RAMROD" folks... at 75 bucks and no need for permits really... it's a better cash cow. My only request is that as a racer you have a duty to help the sport along... not just e-mail "you need more cash for prizes or I ain't coming"... Seriously, remember that MOST promoters have full time jobs and are really just trying to put on some racing. It'd be nice to just go to races and go home, but then somebody has to put on events. As far as those Tuesday nights in BHAM... I used to do those when Alex Steida would show up and sit in for a few laps... I promise to get some more coin... it just takes time and more relationship building. How bout this... you start putting on the Farihaven 2 day stage race again and I'll share my promoter's knowledge with you for free...
Dear Coach Curly...
You have a great course and well run race, and I would love to make the drive down from Bellingham to try to win again this year, but with your race part of the state championship racket -- where the idea seems to be that riders will pay for gas and entry fees for the opportunity to hang a medal around their neck, freeing promotors from the need to pay out cash prizes -- I won't bother. My race (cat 3) isn't part of the(masters) state championship anyway, and at 40 minutes with 3 places for merchandise it isn't enough of a sell.
Maybe next year?
I have to make a comment about the whole state championship thing here. When it was announced at the Promoter Meeting that "who wants to put on the state championship race X? You don't have to have a prize list, just medals." it made me bristle more than just a little bit. Mark my words, I will put on a state championship something, and there will be money up for grabs. And if that rocks some apple carts somewhere, so be it.
And, the profits we make from our races go back into our bank account to earn our measly interest on it so we can use it to put more bike races on and maybe even support some juniors. Last year we paid for half the cost of a junior going to the regional junior camp in California.
I drove from freakin' Pullman to race at Des Moines. I did not complain once about it. Racers race. Period. Especially if you are a cat 3…if you want money upgrade to a 2. I would hate to see what Bryce would think of the “huge” prize list that was given away at Columbia Plateau (one of the best races ever in the NW)
Des Moines was a very well run race. I heard results were a little slow, but if you are not on the podium don’t make a big deal about it.
If you want to talk about an awful race ask about our experience this past weekend in Boise at the Treasure Valley Stage Race. The $10,000 cash they had did not make one bit of difference. Worst promoted race….EVER!
"Racers race." I guess I just don't agree with that. But I'm probably in the minority. I've raced, on and off, since the late 80s. I don't have to go to a race every weekend just because I am a racer.
I've raced throughout New England, the mountain states, and now the Northwest. To be frank, the schedule and variety of races here is somewhat bizarre. Why is the last stand-alone road race of the year in early June (Ravensdale)? Why are the "big" races all in April and May before the weather gets nice?
Anyway, maybe you'll see a road race up in Bham next year, late summer. Rumor is we may get one this year anyway.
Bryce,
Just make sure you make the trek down for my 2 crits that have the 2 largest 1 day pay outs in the area for most categories, especially the Blackberry Crit on Sept. 2
Your two crits...? Is Dave lying when he has you down for the Bainbridge Island Criterium the day after Blackberry?
PNW Buckeye - I'm making those races a priority and I love your attitude as a promoter. I've raced in a lot of criteriums over the years, and for some reason I can't help doing well in them despite the fact I find them totally nerve racking and have a difficult time psyching myself up for the adrenaline rush that begins when the whistle blows.
So, to be convinced that I should ride my bike like a banshee in a circle for an hour, with a long drive on both ends, time spent away from my family or from doing those endless chores that seem to pile up during the racing season, I really do need a carrot. Your races have a garden of them. Thanks.
bryce - checking your results, it looks like we have a little case of a "bagger" on our hands. You rarely race, and when you do you seem to only get the top placings. Do you race infrequently so that you aren't required to upgrade? Why not step up?
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